Thursday, September 17, 2009

Weapons of Mass Destruction


Not that this is a complete list, but you get the idea. Take the poll and vote on which of these has had the worst effect on the Mass.

68 comments:

Alicia said...

All awful, but I'd point out that hippies are responsible for them all...

N. Trandem said...

You're missing the Big One

Enbrethiliel said...

+JMJ+

I voted for Communion in the hand and "Nuns" in pants. I thought about selecting altar girls as well, but one can probably trace them directly to the "Nuns."

Joe of St. Thérèse said...

I voted for all but the pants nuns...I love the TLM, none of this maddness.

Paul Nichols said...

"All awful, but I'd point out that hippies are responsible for them all..."

Excellent point, Alicia. They've been the conduit for everything awful that's happened in the last 40 years.

Anonymous said...

I voted for communion in the hands and nuns in pants but I'd like to add taking down the altar rails (loss of the sense of the sacred) and round churches (loss of the sense on what we are supposed to be focused)to the list.

Stephanie

Paul Nichols said...

I didn't think of that one, Stephanie, but you're right. By trashing the sanctuary, you lose the sense of direction. You also lose the sense of the "Holy of Holies" - the hierarchy of architecture, if you will. I teach my own kids that chatting is reserved for outside the church, and inside the church, you act appropriately. And, when you're up front, you act *especially* appropriately.

With the "church in the round", nothing's special. It's just one big indoor campfire gathering.

Dennis Zender said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
missalthumper said...

Enbrethiliel--I'd put altar girls at the bottom of the list. It is wrong, but altar girls can be rehabilitated. I know; I was one myself. Now I love the TLM(and am lucky enough to belong to the BEST. PARISH. IN. THE. WORLD., St. John Cantius in Chicago).

Paul Nichols said...

Well, if an altar girl can be rehabilitated, there's hope in the world!

Dad29 said...

No entry for Brainless Bishops?

Dennis Zender said...

Chatting, nuns in habits, facing the altar, receiving on the tongue great ways to embrace the wonderful and rich tradition of our Church. Hippies & girl altar servers? I think thats a bit too far. Whats the problem? So if you have long hair you cannot enter a sanctuary? If you are a girl you cannot serve? I'm curious why? And Paul, tell me that if I omitted the the drums, bass on my song version of the song "Hail Mary" would you see this suitable for mass or Adoration Liturgy? www.myspace.com/denniszendermusic

Dennis Zender said...

i guess it is hard to see whether the criticalness is more of holding one to accountability or judgement?

Baron Korf said...

My two were In the Hand, and the Nuns. These both caused a loss of the sacred and unique character of the faith.

Dennis-
Boys can become priests, girls cannot. So you reserve the job of serving at the altar to boys to give them the most exposure possible. If you ask most priests, they found thier vocations from being altar servers. So really, its not a deficency for the girls, its the need to get the young men exposed to the priesthood as much as possible to encourage the vocations.

Paul Nichols said...

Dennis,

I listened to the song - very nice. Take the bass and drums out, and honestly, while it might be a little too modern for me (for the mass), it's a heckuva lot better than what we usually hear.

Maybe it's because it's the Hail Mary. I like the Daughters of St. Paul version. :oD

But to your other question, I think the criticism is more toward accountability. We don't make judgements on the people so much as shine light on the results of the last 40 years.

As for girls at the altar - I'll echo the point that the altar is the starting point for vocations to the priesthood. For me, I'll never understand why JPII changed his mind on the issue. What changed between 1980 and 1996(?) - first, he said "no girls", then said it was ok.

The other part of that is that often the girls end up driving the boys away from the altar, as many studies on the issue have shown.

As a young guy, you've been raised in the "everybody is equal" world, where nobody is allowed to make any distinction between boys and girls. I've even heard women object when I say I teach my sons that boys don't hit girls, believe it or not.

In light of that, it's difficult for younger people to accept that boys & girls are better suited for different things.

Dennis Zender said...

Okay. I guess i can understand some of your points. Thank you for the response. Blessings

Bill Hoog said...

Where's "Jesus in the closet", er, "Eucharistic Chapels"?

pinoycatholic said...

Communion in the hand and Nuns in Pants!

Abominations!

tamtam said...

the more i think about it, i too would blame the hippies. they've been messing around in my church too. however, most of my orthodox church does not put up with such shenanigans as nuns in pants or altar girls.

Anonymous said...

I think you meant worst "effect," not worst "affect."

Anonymous said...

It would be very kind if you could post a link to our blog on your blog:

www.catholicheritage.blogspot.com

God bless you!

St. Conleth's CHA

Faith/Reason said...

Modern hippies of my generation (in their early 20s) are much less likely to be as destructive of liturgy. If anything they would appreciate the ancient aesthetic and the incense. So older hippies are a great evil, but not the sacrilige of communion in the hand.

Paul Nichols said...

"Affect" has been changed to "effect". Sr. Myra would have my hide for that one!!!

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

What hippies? Ones who come to Mass or ones who decide about liturgy? A bit different story; at least I think so.

Then again I may be partial, I do have some hippie looks.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

I'd vote Communion in hands.

Recent doings on by a biology teacher teaches; that is not a safe practise.

Paul Nichols said...

What hippies? I'd say that it includes those that come to mass, but more specifically those who hijack the liturgy. These aren't always the same hippies. :oD

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

How come a hippie who comes to mass but does not hijack the liturgy can be seen as a "weapon of Mass destruction"?

Despite long hair and beard (my photo was taken when I had got a forced shaving) not to mention poverty and begging, I do not interrupt Sanctus to add Kumbaya my Lord, nor do I push myself into position to take communion in the hands, nor do I make of the peace an occasion nobody else wants to for a hug party.

Paul Nichols said...

Okay, okay, Hans. Not ALL hippies are bad... :oD

The CCB hereby declares and affirms that when it speaks of "hippies", it doesn't intend to lump all barber-chair challenged men into one bad group.

For me, "hippie" is more an outlook or worldview than it is a style or manner of dress.

Dennis Zender said...

"For me, "hippie" is more an outlook or worldview than it is a style or manner of dress."

This should have been addressed about a year ago in your blogs.

"So older hippies are a great evil, but not the sacrilige of communion in the hand."

I can think of about a million things in this world of greater evil partner.

Anonymous said...

Guitars, which led to
Microphones, which led to
Flutes, which led to more
Microphones, which led to
Tamborenes, which led to
Drums, which led to more
Drums, which led to
Amplifiers, which led to more
Microphones and amplifiers, to
Keyboards, which led to more and more and more....

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Ah, but listening to "El Cóndor pasa" is not something I do in Mass!

Paul Nichols said...

"For me, "hippie" is more an outlook or worldview than it is a style or manner of dress."

This should have been addressed about a year ago in your blogs.
--------------------------
Dennis,

Up to now, there hasn't been a need to spell out the CCB's view on hippies, since most of us generally understand what we mean by the term. But I can see how it can be taken as simply a manner of dress.

But there are plenty out there who'd qualify as "hippie" who have short hair, or even mild-mannered suburban women who seem to embrace the worldview of the hippie. And, to be fair, if someone wants to be a hippie, I say live and let live.

But the Faith doesn't need enhancement tips from hippies. Nor does it need to be made "relevant" by troublemakers who think that somehow the Faith should bend to the wills and ways of the world. They did that back in the 60's and looked at what's happened - it's more irrelevant than ever in the daily life of Catholics.

Dennis Zender said...

Paul,

I guess i haven't been participating in your blog long enough to know the descriptor. I do disagree with your point of view believe it or not.

Dennis Zender said...

I just don't think Our Lord is happy seeing us bicker over this stuff one way or another. He wants unity through Him and in Him. The rest and how you get there is irrevelant. As long as the music brings you to prayer and doesn't take you away from it, there is nothing "pagan" or "evil" about it. But what is a distraction to one may be reflection to another..you just can't win here folks. However, if music is poorly played, it can be a distraction to many..sadly.

Gina said...

Communion in the hand.

Gina said...

To make a comment about "guitars" at mass---

There are two ways to play guitar at mass. There is the wrong way, which requires not much more than the ability to play 4 or 5 chords and strum away like you're at a hootinanny (off rhythm, of course)...

And then there's the right way, which requires some technical ability on the part of the guitarist. This guitarist can lead if necessary, but should easily fall into the role of accompaniment with an organ or a piano, to enchance the overall quality of music with technique and dynamics.

So ultimately, it's not so much the guitar that's the problem....it crappy guitarists.

Gina said...

ok, one more comment, this time about the nuns: I think it goes way beyond nuns in "pants"....but it's abandoning the habit altogether that has been a real problem for the Church.

When a sister takes a vow, she's essentially marrying the Lord. Wearing the habit was a way to not just give them an identity outside of their communities---think of the psychological impact of a uniform and draw the conclusions from there.

Dennis Zender said...

Gina has it dead on when it comes to guitar in mass. Period.

Paul Nichols said...

So ultimately, it's not so much the guitar that's the problem....it crappy guitarists.
--------------------
Very good point, Gina. Dennis, you're correct. Instead of just a guitar, I should have drawn a crappy guitarist. But how would you know he was crappy? :oD

Dennis Zender said...

these thing are a mystery :)

JP said...

I am known as a liturgy nazi (on the orthodox side), although I do come across as a raving liberal compared to some I am reading here.

I agree about the guitar...it's all about how it's played. While I would never argue against the organ having pride of place, if you don't have an organ, or organist, what is the problem with a competant classical style guitar, or even a respectful, appropriately amplified steel-strung guitar?

Now of course if we were chanting...we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Mike Gomez said...

My vote is for one that isn't listed:

Versus Populum mass. Mass became entertainment, and priests became the actor.

I say a return to Ad Orientem and communion on the tongue is the first changes we need in the Ordinary form.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

ad orientem, yes

communion on tongue or in spoon (the oriental way)

Paul Nichols said...

Versus Populum mass. Mass became entertainment, and priests became the actor.
---------------
Major problem, indeed. How many times have we heard people say that they don't "get anything" out of going to Church? As if they're supposed to be "entertained".

To twist the President : "Ask not what you get from the Mass. Ask what you give TO it."

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Opening scene of Life of Brian: the three wise men came with offerings, but they were not for Brian Cohen (the priest, Cohen means priest) but for Christ himself, so they turned their back to Brian Cohen, as the faithful, according to Claus Gamber, turned their backs to the priest in occidented churches (the few that had altar to the west).

Matthew J. McKinley said...

Very funny!

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

Seriously, I wonder if these guys in Monty Python met with representatives of Latin Mass society, like BRYAN Houghton, a PRIEST. And made Life of Brian - the mass was of course Fr Houghton's life - from what they understood of his catechising.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

I mean Holy Mass, of course.

Anonymous said...

I think that guitars are perfectly OK for Mass.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

As for "mother of Brian Cohen" - see this illustration of sancta mater ecclesia ... if it be so. Fr Houghton was (see Unwanted Priest) sometimes horrified at episcopal conferences (French translation heads a chapter L'Église du bavardage - The Church of babbling or sth like that) and their inhumanity towards Traditional sensibilities.

Anonymous said...

I'll go for the guitars and communion in the hand...not to mention the total lack of guidance my Catholic school gave me on when to/not to recieve communion. Half of the kids weren't Catholic (myself included at the time; I've since converted to Catholicism in spite of the school's best efforts), but we were rarely, if ever, told not to go forward or to receive a blessing instead.

Hans-Georg Lundahl said...

More on Sancta Mater ecclesia: "no, it was not Church, it was only men of the Church", so there Life of Brian has a bad theology. I am quoting Mgr Lefèbvre's address in Lille.

Sensei Mitch said...

Seems like there are a few hippies posting comments! The best mass I attended in the last year was just before Christmas one when the organist and soloist were out sick. With no choir or music or prompting the congregation sang and managed to stand, sit and kneel at the appropriate times. It was simple and peaceful. The Pope has said there is to much noise in the Mass and I agree. You are there to commune with God, that is where your inner peace should come from, that is where you should be moved. Not by the music. I agree music can move and raise our spirits but it the soul that we are concerned with when we attend Church.

Our church refers to the "music ministry" and its importance to the Church. Music in the service should never take center stage. Let the people sing and you may be surprised that they will!

Paul:

With all due respect "I think the criticism is more toward accountability. We don't make judgements on the people so much as shine light on the results". I think it is exactly that mentality that has empowered the 'hippies' over the last 40 years. We do and should make judgments! However we should not stand in judgment, ie condemn outside of the written law. We (collectively) at some point need to stand up and say, 'that' is not o.k.. If that isn't a judgment I am missing something. We have become afraid to use words like wrong, discriminate, judge because they are not PC and the faint of heart will shrink from us. Sorry if I brought out my soapbox.

Paul Nichols said...

Sensei Mitch:

Good points. I agree that the fear of being called "judgemental" has allowed the worst things to happen. But I also know that for some people, it really *isn't* about tearing down the Faith. For some, I believe that this IS the intention.

I believe the tide is turning, though, as Hippie Catholicism is falling out of favor. But it's going to take a long time to reach the parish level.

Sensei Mitch said...

I hope you are correct about things changing. Though I am not convinced of it here in Connecticut. I serve on a Catholic School Board and I often have to remind people that we are Catholic and there are rules. The reason I hesitate to agree with you about things changing is that needs to start with the children. Many Catholic parents do not see the benefit of a Catholic education. Many of the Catholic lay people I interact with do not want to follow Church teachings and doctrine I remind them there are other churches that fit there beliefs:)

The bigger problem however is I am not sure people are really listening when they are sitting in the pews. I say this because on a few occasions I have stopped the priest after mass to clarify or take him to task for something he said in his sermon. No one else is standing and waiting.

I know everyone is thinking OMG what a pain in the neck this guy must be! But I feel there is a mutual relationship with our clergy to keep each other on the straight and narrow.

Hmmm... I still sound a bit ogre-ish and don't want that to let others easily dismiss my thoughts let me give an example;

Deacon in his sermon speaking about family say "we must respect family, regardless of the configuration". Words mean a lot to me and this spoke volumes to me. So I grabbed the priest after mass. Once I brought this up he explained that we have several gay families that attend mass. I acted shocked. He explained that you can't judge from the pulpit. My stance was this. Neither should you validate from the pulpit. I gave him a counter-example: I told him I was an adulterer and asked if he said something from the pulpit that made me see my lifestyle in a positive light, was that o.k.? He saw my point, said he would bring it up with the Deacon, and assured me he stuck to Church teachings.

Hopefully not so ogre-ish now. The above point however is that to often we offer acceptance to avoid appearing judgmental. In the act of acceptance we are entering into sin. It is the slippery slope.

Thank you for your response and for stimulating such a great conversation.

Paul Nichols said...

Deacon in his sermon speaking about family say "we must respect family, regardless of the configuration".
-----------------
That would have been a good time for a Joe Wilson moment: "You Lie!"
If there are "gay families" (whatever the heck that is), they shouldn't be allowed.

On the flip side - about 5 years ago, a transitional deacon was giving the homily. He tied everything, most notably, belief in the Real Presence, to where you stood on abortion and artificial birth control. It remains the strongest homily I've heard in my 11 years back.

People not paying attention? It's because most of the time, the priest isn't actually saying anything. They don't want to offend, or challenge us.

As for sending kids to Catholic schools, look at what they teach them in those schools. So often it's so watered down that they come out basically as protestants.

We'll be old men ( I'm 45 ) before things really change, I'm afraid.

Sensei Mitch said...

It's official you have a friend in Connecticut!

You wouldn't happen to have a reference for that homily? I'd love to read it or hear it as I'm always looking to gain a deeper understanding.

You are right on the mark about the lack of challenging content. That is the one problem that I see in Catholic Schools. They are better than public school but not by much. We are actually investigating homeschooling since there are no high school options near us.

Thank you again for the stimulating conversation.

Paul Nichols said...

Thankfully, we purposefully moved to Pennsylvania to get away from the liberal crap-trap in Maryland public schools.

I wish I had a reference for the homily; I don't even remember his name. I'm sure it ticked off all the liberals there.

Paul Nichols said...

Thankfully, we purposefully moved to Pennsylvania to get away from the liberal crap-trap in Maryland public schools.

I wish I had a reference for the homily; I don't even remember his name. I'm sure it ticked off all the liberals there.

Robert Kumpel said...

Paul:
Just saw this today and laughed like crazy.

I still remember the first folk Mass I had to suffer through. I was only 10 and didn't have the knowledge or the words to explain what was wrong, but every instinct within me knew that I had witnessed a sacrilegious travesty--and it was even more confusing because it had the apparent approval of the priests and nuns.

One song in particular is embedded in my memory. It is a song worthy of Barney the Dinosaur:

"Sons of God,
Hear His holy word,
Gather 'round
the table of the Lord,
Eat His Body, drink His Blood
And we'll sing a song of love,
Allelu, allelu, allelu, alleluia"

BARF!!!!!!

Robert Kumpel said...

BTW,

I am still waiting for the next inevitable horror:

The RAP MASS.

Paul Nichols said...

Rap Mass, Heavy Metal Mass, why not? What argument could the Vatican II-types make against it?

John Paul said...

it seems you guys are forgetting something, the mass wasn't said in latin the first time, holy men and women, the disciples didn't wear habits at the first mass, and there were no altar boys or girls, Christ did not establish any of these things, however they are all rooted in tradition. The mass is about CHRIST, not hippies, or altar girls, or nuns in pants. We are called to HIS supper to worship Him, i'll take prayerful worship music with guitar over stuffy chants that the vast majority of the congregation sing mindlessly without prayer and adoration. I love Catholic tradition, and i think we need to hold onto it, but Vatican II is a decision of the CHURCH, which is all of us, not to be divided but united. Remember what the mass is, not altar boys or girls, hippies or fogies, nuns in pants or nuns in skirts, not organs or guitars, the mass is the LORD's supper, where we come to receive HIM.

(p.s. the apostles most likely received the first Eucharist in their hands)

Paul Nichols said...

"Remember what the mass is, not altar boys or girls, hippies or fogies, nuns in pants or nuns in skirts, not organs or guitars, the mass is the LORD's supper, where we come to receive HIM."
-------------------------
John Paul,

Vatican II, while it didn't mandate the insanity that we've witnessed the last 40 years, has certainly been used as a doorstop for all of it.

Witness your use of the phrase "Lord's Supper". The de-emphasis of the Sacrifice has led to a downturn in belief in the Real Presence. You can claim that the Mass is not about all those crazy things, but in many parishes, that's ALL it's about anymore.

John Paul said...

I use the phrase the "Lord's Supper" because that's IS what the mass is, that's where it was established.

East of Nowhere said...

Resurrecting this combox after a few weeks...

Why are the banners grouped in with the other stuff? Some pre-Vatican II non-banner rule I never heard about?

Paul Nichols said...

Those tacky felt banners are part and parcel of the radical crowd.

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